Is Southpoint our hero?

61 Comments

1. 

   Del Snow

    /  February 9, 2015

   Thank you, Nancy, it is very sad.

   A long time Chapel Hill told me that as he was walking on W. Franklin Street a few months ago, he was stopped by an out-of-towner and asked “Where is the charming part of Franklin Street?”

   When I first visited here close to 25 years ago, residents we spoke to all said “You have to a walk down Franklin Street,” with pride in their voices. Now, everyone seems to say “Why bother?” Other than Med Deli, Yogurt Pump, Vimala’s and Buns, nothing downtown would call my name.

2. 

   Terri

    /  February 9, 2015

   I don’t know that Franklin Street was ever charming, nor would I want it to be. I like diversity and while many of the businesses I frequented when I was younger have disappeared, I don’t know that I would still be visiting them (mostly bars with live music). I still miss The Intimate Bookshop, Foisters, the Record Bar and Schoolkids, but it actually surprises me how many of the older businesses have survived: Carolina Coffee Shop, Chapel Hill Florists, Four Corners, Spanky’s, Shrunken Head, Johnny T-Shirt, Carolina Sportswear, Varsity Theater among the ones I remember from the 1980s and earlier.

3. 

   many

    /  February 9, 2015

   Interesting. This trend will certainly solve the traffic problem and open up parking.

   Southpoint is definitely not “form based coding” in any way shape or (ahem) form, however I am struck by how Southpoint has hijacked the downtown Durham “tobacco” motif/brand for its mall. On the other hand, Durham has changed and experienced a resurgence in some areas recently, both bad an good. Not sure if the two are connected somehow.

   One has to wonder if (as you seem to suggest) the Ephasus Fordham development would attempt to do the same with downtown Chapel Hill.

   Besides poor infrastructure planning and a missing vision, what I think you are seeing in downtown Chapel Hill is the effect of the recession on the low margin small business on Franklin street. I think small business that can take advantage of the internet to increase margins do do by not bothering with a store front.

   To me the better question to ask is “How has Southpoint helped or hurt downtown Durham”?

4. 

   David Schwartz

    /  February 9, 2015

   I suppose charm is in the eye of the beholder, but there can be no doubt that the Franklin St sidewalks were more heavily trafficked in the 1970s and 1980s, especially on weekend evenings, even though there were far fewer residents.

   I recall Franklin St as being THE place to be in the Triangle on a Friday and Saturday night, that students from Duke and NC State, and grown-ups too from Durham and Raleigh, would drive in to Chapel Hill to partake of our nightlife. True, there was less competition then from other cities, but the 100 block of East Franklin had seven—seven!—first-run movie screens (two each at the Varsity and Carolina and three at the Ram Triple) bustling restaurants up and down the block, a dance club above Sutton’s, bars, bookstores, bars that were also bookstores, record stores and so on.

   I think we can get the vitality back, and that we will, once we realize that simply adding residential density in the form of high-rise apartments is a failed economic development strategy.

5. 

   Rucker

    /  February 9, 2015

   I am interested in learning more about how Form Based code is driving out local businesses in the Ephesus-Fordham district.

6. 

   Nancy

    /  February 9, 2015

   Rucker —
   Form-based code allows untempered gentrification. The property manager at Village Plaza is not giving long-term leases to any of the existing businesses, because he is not sure that the current independent businesses will fit with the tenants expected to move into the luxury apartments. He has told Village Plaza Dry Cleaners that its lease will not be extended once it runs out. The doll shop moved out rather than go month-to-month. Other business owners have commented privately that they expect that if they are offered lease renewals, the rents will be too high to afford.

7. 

   Julie McClintock

    /  February 9, 2015

   Why is Form Based Code (FBC) chasing out local business? My non technical explanation is that FBC brought the offer of building high rises without much review, an offer too attractive to be passed up by real estate speculators, i.e. Regency from Florida, and Eastwest Partners. The properties are now worth more – more tax base for the town – but higher taxes must be paid by owners. To improve their return the owners push out old time tenants and in Perry’s case bring in the cheap money from the banks for residential housing. I can name the businesses that won’t be there in several years, including Plaza cleaners. Not only do we lose our favorite businesses but taxpayers will pay for the cost of services not covered by the increased taxes.

8. 

   DOM

    /  February 9, 2015

   David Schwartz

   “I recall Franklin St as being THE place to be in the Triangle on a Friday and Saturday night, that students from Duke and NC State, and grown-ups too from Durham and Raleigh, would drive in to Chapel Hill to partake of our nightlife.”

   And I recall a lot of drunken students and little more than bars and t-shirt shops. Odd how one’s memories are so malleable and often help to recreate a long-ago that never really was.

   I believe Franklin St. will be in flux until we have enough residents living downtown who can provide a steady and consistent stream of regular income for real businesses, not just drinking establishments. Visit the new grocery market at Med Deli, for example – you sure wouldn’t have seen that in your ‘nightlife’ of years gone by.

   And when University Place finally gets built it’ll get even better.

9. 

   David Schwartz

    /  February 9, 2015

   Rucker,

   You can read an article about the predicament of Village Plaza Cleaners here:

   http://ourtownchapelhill.org/aboutus/newsletters/whole-foods-can-stay-forget-about-dry-cleaning/

   The town government could have provided some protections for smaller, locally-owned businesses to reduce the likelihood that redevelopment would displace them, but they chose not to.

10. 

    Terri

     /  February 9, 2015

    DOM wrote: “I believe Franklin St. will be in flux until we have enough residents living downtown who can provide a steady and consistent stream of regular income for real businesses, not just drinking establishments. Visit the new grocery market at Med Deli, for example – you sure wouldn’t have seen that in your ‘nightlife’ of years gone by.”

    Odd, I used to live downtown. Didn’t have a car, and didn’t need one. I could walk to the grocery (Fowlers–closed), had my choice of movie theaters (2 out of 3 closed), a bookstore (closed), a camera store (closed), 2 record stores (closed), and as you mentioned a number of bars where I heard nationally recognized musicians like the Allman Brothers, Arrogance, and Red Clay Ramblers.

    All that and less density that we have now. Imagine.

11. 

    Del Snow

     /  February 9, 2015

    DOM wrote: “I believe Franklin St. will be in flux until we have enough residents living downtown who can provide a steady and consistent stream of regular income for real businesses, not just drinking establishments. Visit the new grocery market at Med Deli, for example – you sure wouldn’t have seen that in your ‘nightlife’ of years gone by.”

    I heartily support the little grocery at Med Deli – I was there on opening day, just to show my support, but the fact remains that there is no complete downtown supermarket. There was supposed to be one at University Square, but somehow, even though it is being rebuilt from the ground up, on one could figure out how to design for the delivery trucks. Without one, downtown residents are forced either to make multiple trips and cobble together their shopping list, or, more likely, hope in the car and drive to a supermarket.
    140 West retail space is 34% vacant, despite its residential residents and those of Greenbridge. The rents don’t allow for they types of businesses that are necessary to support downtown residences. Instead, chain stores that have corporate support and high profit business like bars claim the space.
    The Franklin Hotel has also been open for quite a while, and what has opened to support the guests that stay there?

12. 

    Rucker

     /  February 9, 2015

    Thanks for the replies. While I can understand many of the criticisms of form based code I am still having a really hard time seeing the correlation between the approval of form based code and rent increases or re-tenanting decisions made by existing shopping centers. This appears to be a pretty big stretch to me. You may argue one landlord has different priorities than another about who is in their center and how and how much they charge, but the passage of form based code did nothing to change the “value” of the existing shopping centers as they sit actively functioning today or the rent they are able to charge. That is all a function of how much sales volume the stores are able to achieve which the zoning has absolutely 0 influence on.

13. 

    DOM

     /  February 9, 2015

    Terri –

    ” I could walk to the grocery (Fowlers–closed), had my choice of movie theaters (2 out of 3 closed), a bookstore (closed), a camera store (closed), 2 record stores (closed), and as you mentioned a number of bars where I heard nationally recognized musicians like the Allman Brothers, Arrogance, and Red Clay Ramblers.”

    Wow. That’s a little too far in Mr. Peabody’s Wayback Machine for me. Records and cameras and movies, oh my.

    Del –

    Guaranteed that a supermarket will open downtown when there are enough customers there to support it. Taking the pessimistic position that “the sky is falling” downtown isn’t really going to help – we need to be hard at work promoting creative solutions. Do you have any, other than simply recommending that we stop growing?

14. 

    Fred Black

     /  February 9, 2015

    As some are wont to blame the Town leadership and staff for all that ails Franklin Street, let’s not forget that some of the businesses that have closed did so because of poor management, not being properly capitalized, and/or misreading the market. And it’s worth considering what Robert said about why his business has lasted 20 years, in spite of all of the challenges.

15. 

    David

     /  February 9, 2015

    Fred,

    One can take the entirely respectable position that it’s not the government’s responsibility to ensure the survival or prosperity of any given business, that each one must sink or swim on its own merits. But over the past several years our town staff and elected officials have made the deliberate decision to drastically alter the character of West Franklin St., at considerable public expense (e.g., the subsidies for 140 West) and in ways that many townsfolk, both long-time residents and newcomers, find objectionable, in the belief that doing so would promote a commercial revitalization of downtown.

    If, however, it turns out that building high-rise luxury apartments downtown does not in fact help support downtown businesses, that it may in fact harm them (e.g., by making parking less available or less convenient and the district less appealing overall) then perhaps the theory of economic development propagated by the Chamber of Commerce and embraced by a majority of current elected officials is erroneous and should be abandoned. Shouldn’t we try to tally up the gains and losses associated with this policy and determine whether the projected benefits have actually materialized? And if they haven’t, maybe we ought to try something else, rather than digging ourselves even deeper in the hole.

16. 

    Nancy

     /  February 9, 2015

    DOM —

    Don tells me Fowler’s closed about 1993. Theaters, bookstores and record stores were all there when I moved to town in 1996. Perhaps you went downtown for different reasons and noticed only T-shirt shops and bars. And who is Mr. Peabody?

17. 

    Terri

     /  February 9, 2015

    I don’t think Franklin St. problems are the fault of the government. I’m not sure I think Franklin St has any problems. Yes, businesses close but they always have and they always will.

    What I have a problem with is people who think density is going to “fix” every problem in this town. First of all, I’m never quite clear what problem density is supposed to fix. But mostly, I just think it’s oversimplistic thinking. We had all the features people now want with much less density than there is now. So why is even more density going to change what we know about the structural problems of high rents and lack of develop-able space?

    Why not consider that economic ethics have changed? We can’t have a small grocery like Fowlers because it wouldn’t generate a big enough profit (especially in light of current rents). Density isn’t going to help that unless its so dense that one of the major chains moves in–but where would they put it?

    It’s a complex problem and the only answers I hear are just drivel. Density or hotels–those are the answers for everything these days.

18. 

    David Schwartz

     /  February 9, 2015

    Rucker,

    This is a bit outside my area of expertise, but here’s how I understand the relationship between the rezoning and the displacement of existing small business:

    The adoption of the Ephesus-Fordham plan did two things: It replaced the existing permitting process with form-based code, and it increased the allowable density for most of the district tenfold. Whereas before, the built square footage could not exceed 50% of the total square footage of the site, under the new zoning it can be more than 500% of the site area. And replacing the previous permitting process with a form-based code decreased the time, expense, and uncertainty associated with obtaining a construction permit.

    This increase in how much can be built on a parcel of land within the district and facilitation of permitting greatly increases the land’s market value. Thus, in the months leading up to the rezoning, when it seemed likely that the Council was going to approve it, a firm bought the Village Plaza shopping center—the one containing Whole Foods—for a much higher price than anyone would have been willing to pay only a year or two before.

    The higher sale price triggers a reappraisal of the property value, resulting in higher property taxes. In order to pay those higher taxes, the new owner needs to increase the rental income he receives from his tenants, so he raises their rent. Those who can’t afford the new, higher rent, leave.

    In sum, the rezoning, by increasing the market value—and, thus, the tax liability—of the property, encourages the displacement of businesses that can not afford to pay markedly higher rents.

19. 

    Bruce Springsteen

     /  February 9, 2015

    The Allman Brothers played on Franklin St? Where? “I was born in the backseat of a Greyhound Bus rolling down Highway 15-501” I heard once that REM and Lyle Lovett played The Cave (separately, not together) but I don’t know if that’s true.

    They put up a building with businesses on the ground floor and condos above and people say “We need more people to support the businesses” so then they put up another building with businesses on the ground floor and condos above. So you’re getting more people to support the businesses but at the same time you’re getting more businesses that need supported so I’m not it’s any better in the big picture. An exception to that might be if the number of a kind of store increases from 0 to 1, like with a grocery store, and then there are a lot of people supporting that one business. But even in that case there are other grocery stores not too far away competing.

    I wonder where the people that go to Franklin St come from (other than the ones that are close by to begin with). It occurs to me that if you’re coming from the south then you have to go all the way through campus and then when you get near Franklin St you even have to go past it, probably through the congested Franklin/Columbia intersection, to get to the parking facilities, most of which are north of Franklin St. So that’s kind of a hassle.

    Someone was talking about whether it was the lack of interesting businesses or the lack of parking that keeps people from Franklin St. My guess is that a lot more people say “I’m not going to Franklin St because it’s a hassle” than say “Going to Franklin St isn’t a hassle but I’m not going there because there aren’t any interesting businesses.”

20. 

    Bonnie

     /  February 10, 2015

    I feel that form- based code is taking the rap for developer driven planning. Personally I like the idea of predictable zoning rather the protracted, high risk process behind special use permits and conditional zoning. But I prefer to see developers jointly planning with impacted communities.

    When it comes to downtown vs Southpoint, I’ve been impressed at how Duke is working with Durham to occupy taxable commercial real estate and help grow the commercial base. That brings all kinds of business activity to downtown shops and restaurants. And yes, it’s easier to park.
    http://www.newsobserver.com/2015/02/04/4530794_real-deals-slew-of-projects-promise.html?rh=1

21. 

    David

     /  February 10, 2015

    Rucker,

    Let me add to the above comment that even if the sale of the rezoned Village Plaza parcel did not trigger a reappraisal and higher tax liability, the firm that bought it will need to generate sufficient rental income to service its debt payments and, they hope, make a decent profit. Because they paid a much higher price than the property would have fetched before the rezoning, their debt payments will be correspondingly higher and in order to service that debt they will need to generate more rental income from the property by raising the rates for the existing commercial space, adding new leasable space to the site, or both.

    To Bonnie’s point, form-based code, when it’s done properly, does involve the community in the planning. There are lots of examples of FBCs that provide a blueprint for the kind of development the members of a community said they wanted and that retain a measure of public oversight of development decisions. The codes for Flagstaff, AZ, Bradenton, FL, and Asheville are three examples with which I am familiar.

    The FBC for Ephesus-Fordham, however, was, for the most part, developed without broadbased support from the impacted community, and it provides a blueprint for development that is at odds with what the community said they wanted. The Town Council will have an opportunity this spring to amend the FBC to bring it into better alignment with the community’s wishes. We’ll see what happens.

22. 

    Terri

     /  February 10, 2015

    Bruce, there used to be a bar called White Horse in the underground space just off the alley by Carolina Coffee Shop. That space is broken up into multiple shops now but it was one big, rockin’ joint in days gone by. It brought in big rowdy crowds and great bands.

23. 

    many

     /  February 10, 2015

    Nancy

    Mr. Peabody & Sherman (created by Jay Ward and Ted Key) were cartoon characters in the 1960’s Rocky & Bullwinkle show. This reference gives great insight into the influences in DOMs formative years. I suspect DOM experienced a logical progression to Pinky and the Brain (created by Steven Spielberg) around the time Fowler’s closed.

    BTW it was the WABAC (pronounced “wayback”) machine that allowed time travel and the “improbably history” stories.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mister_Peabody

24. 

    Fred Black

     /  February 10, 2015

    One leaves, another comes. The DTH reports this morning:

    Roots Bistro replaces Top This!

    East Franklin Street is getting a little more flavor.

    Roots Bistro will take the place of Top This! Roast Beef, Burgers & More at 161 E. Franklin St. The restaurant will offer catering services through this week and plans to open for Valentine’s Day weekend.

    The bistro, run by partners Turtle Harrison, Rolando Ordonez Ramos and Juan Jose Ordonez, will offer a fusion of Central American and classic American cuisine. Harrison said the restaurant wants to utilize local foods and will partner with other local businesses such as Olio and Aceto Cafe and Blue Sky Oil and Vinegar.

    “You’ll see some stuff on the menu that’s a little different, but you’ll also see some of the things you saw when you went home to grandma’s,” said Harrison. “We’ll have a lot of slow-cooked meats and corn-based tamales. It’s a lot of flavors all in one menu.”

    Harrison said Roots will be affordable to students and will feature a full bar to cater to a night crowd as well as individuals seeking beer and wine dinners.

    The bistro will be one of the few full-service restaurants on East Franklin.

25. 

    Mark Marcoplos

     /  February 10, 2015

    Bruce Springsteen,
    The Allman Bros. did not play in Chapel Hill. It was another band using their name as an alias.

    Butch Trucks and his band did play in Town Hall. Also Delbert McClinton, Tracy Nelson, and a bunch of other great local bands including Arrogance & South Wing. Downtown had its own vibrancy rooted in the youthful energy of the day.

    The Allman Bros. did play on campus (in maybe 1970?) at one of the Jubilee festivals.

26. 

    DOM

     /  February 10, 2015

    Nancy –

    My point is, the businesses that Terri looked back on so fondly – record shops, camera stores, and single-screen movie theaters – are virtually extinct. If we’re wistfully hoping we can get back to that, we’re DEFINITELY moving in the wrong direction.

    This seems to be a common theme with CHALT’s agenda – bring back the smalltown flavor of the good old days. Truth is, that no longer exists. If we don’t move out of the past, pronto, we’re going to lose the opportunity to thrive in the future.

    Onward.

    btw, ‘Mr. Peabody’ was a hit film last year that grossed well over $250M(!) at the box office. But most likely only younger folks would know that.

27. 

    Terri Buckner

     /  February 10, 2015

    Where did I get the bar name of White Horse? Sorry for this misinformation; but I could swear I was in that basement space when I saw the Allman Bros.

28. 

    many

     /  February 10, 2015

    Don’t forget “Southern Culture on the Skids”

29. 

    Del Snow

     /  February 10, 2015

    Dom,

    This is misinformation. CHALT’s agenda has nothing to do with “bring back the good old days.” That would be futile – we are in agreement.

    The agenda is based on fact based decision making as opposed to assumptions or pretty scenarios painted by developer presentations. As you may have noted, the call for a fiscal impact analysis that has been repeated championed by concerned citizens, has now resulted in Council asking to see the numbers. Unfortunately, we are seeing fiscal impact analysis submitted by applicants that omit information – as an example, no costs for transit are part of The Edge analysis.

    CHALT is also concerned about the trend toward high end dwellings that leave out residents who cannot afford them. If the goal is to become a mostly upper class white town, we are on our way.

    We support more commercial development over more residential development, more care for physical consequences of development, such as traffic, loss of tree canopy and flooding. We care about quality of life for people who have lived here for decades and for those who plan to raise their families here and become the next guardians of our town. If all these are values that you can’t support, that is certainly your right.

30. 

    many

     /  February 10, 2015

    Terri,

    I am suspecting you are suffering form the “Brian Williams Effect”. White Horse was (is?) a “tribute band” they cover both the Allman Brothers and Grateful Dead.

    I was lucky enough to be at the Capitol Theater in Port Chester NY in 1971 for the real thing (just prior to the famous Fillmore East Concert) before Duane and the peach truck met.

    Afterward, I watched Rocky & Bullwinkle of course.

31. 

    Fred Black

     /  February 10, 2015

    Mark Schultz has a piece about The Rev. Bob Seymour that will be in tomorrow’s CHN. A reference to “the good ole days” here and the protests and attempts to desegregate Chapel Hill (and of course, Franklin Street). This gem caught my eye:

    “I (Mark) tell him I’ve read John Ehle’s “The Free Men,” about the civil rights protests in Chapel Hill. I share the anecdote about the white woman squatting over a demonstrator and urinating.

    Yes, Seymour says, punctuating the air with his BLT. “Most people have not read Ehle’s book and know very very little about this ‘liberal’ place,” he says.”

    Fortunately, we’ve come a long way from those days! But please remember that there are long term residents here who don’t have pleasant memories about Franklin Street when some folks called the street the crowning glory of our “charming little village.”

32. 

    David Schwartz

     /  February 10, 2015

    DOM, my friend, you need to get out more. We have in our own community a thriving camera store—Southeastern Camera—just not on Franklin St. The city of Ann Arbor, where I lived for many years in the 1990s, has a thriving single-screen movie theater right in the heart of downtown—the Michigan Theater. We have in Chapel Hill a thriving record/CD store, CD Alley, and it *is* on Franklin St.

    You didn’t mention books, but I assume you think those are passé as well. Well, we have a thriving independent book store—Flyleaf—just not on Franklin St. Now imagine if you had Flyleaf, Southeastern Camera, and CD Alley all on the 100 block of East Franklin, and the Varsity restored to its former glory as a classic single-screen movie house. Throw in a couple of distinctive locally-owned restaurants, bars, cafes, clothiers, a computer repair shop, a stationers, etc. Can you feel the vitality starting to return?

33. 

    DOM

     /  February 10, 2015

    David Schwartz –

    I doubt very many people under thirty have much need for record and camera stores, a former-glory movie theater, or even a book store for that matter.

    If you live with young people, or have one of your own, you’ll know what I’m talking about. Just out of curiosity, how many members of CHALT are under thirty? From what I’ve seen/heard, most of them seem to be at least middle-aged, or even older.

34. 

    Deborah Fulghieri

     /  February 10, 2015

    Oooooooo!
    DOM, you must be real young, slinging it around that we’re middle-aged on this forum, “or even older.” Goodness gracious me, I never! Why, when I was your age, er, ah, well, chances are I will be someday.

35. 

    David Schwartz

     /  February 10, 2015

    DOM,

    For what it’s worth, I have a six-year-old daughter whose series of Magic Treehouse books is one of her most prized possessions, who falls asleep each night listening to a CD, and who enjoys taking photos with the used digital camera I bought for her at Southeastern Camera. She may decide to trade them all in for an iPhone when she’s older, or she may not. I suspect books and cameras will be with us for a long while yet, though the viability of brick and mortar book and camera retailers in the age of Amazon is another matter.

    At last count there were around 1,000 Chapel Hill residents on the CHALT mailing list. We don’t ask them to give their age when they sign up, so I can’t tell you how many are under thirty, but I would guess it’s a small percentage thus far, not because residents in that age range don’t share CHALT’s goals for the Town, but because folks under thirty tend not to be tuned in to local civic affairs in general. In both 2011 and 2013, only 10% of the voters were under 36. So I think the age distribution of CHALT supporters is probably representative of the Chapel Hill voting population in municipal elections.

    My sense is that Triangle-area young folks who want to live in highly urbanized surroundings don’t settle in Chapel Hill; they settle in Raleigh or Durham where that kind of lifestyle is readily available. Those who settle in Chapel Hill are looking for something else, and hopefully that “something else” will continue to be available to them.

36. 

    TimesChange

     /  February 10, 2015

    Anybody wondering why downtown Chapel Hill doesn’t have the cachet it used to should probably go spend some weekend (and weekday) evenings in Durham.

    Grab a friend, go stand on the corner of Riggsbee and Geer, and tell people walking by you’re from out of town and are visiting for the evening, and ask what your options are.

    There are experiences you can have over there that just don’t happen here. The Triangle is a foodie place but Chapel Hill is mostly untouched by the foodtruck dining innovation in the other urban towns, particularly Durham. And the restaurants are still doing great in those places. There’s an outdoor skating rink at American Tobacco this time of year. There’s a solid center city farmers’ market. They have at least 2 indy record stores. Documentary film festivals and PopUp Chorus.

    Politically and culturally, it’s also hard not to notice that Pride is a Durham-based celebration now. When marriage equality was still up in the air, local politicians rallied not at Peace and Justice plaza, but at Fullsteam.

    Many of the things being lamented on this thread are not absent from the Triangle at all. But if you only look for them in Chapel Hill, yes, you might believe some things were gone, rather than merely relocated.

37. 

    DOM

     /  February 10, 2015

    David Schwartz –

    “At last count there were around 1,000 Chapel Hill residents on the CHALT mailing list.”

    I’m confused; does this mean they are actual supporters or have simply been identified as possible resources to contact? I’m on a lot of mailing lists, most of which I never actually asked to be on.

38. 

    Joe Blow

     /  February 11, 2015

    1. The idea that parking is a problem on Franklin St. is a myth that needs to die. To see it promulgated by a business owner on Franklin St. is just crazy. I happen to go to Franklin St. every day for food and entertainment. Parking is never a problem except for a few hours during dinner hours when there’s a sports event. Other than that, there’s plenty of free, close parking, and people who can’t figure out where it is probably can’t be helped.

    2. The idea that form-based code somehow drives out businesses is another absurdity. Businesses come and go. I would argue that the Village Plaza area has some of the longest-running businesses in town located there. There’s been no exodus of tenants because of a town planning law.

    3. Businesses come and go because of bad business models. For every business that closes, there are more that continue to thrive and be successful on Franklin St., in Village Plaza, and all around town.

    Nancy, it’s funny, but for somebody who supposedly is a proponent of Chapel Hill, you beat the “shop elsewhere, Chapel Hill is dying, there’s no parking” drum louder than anybody in town. You’re really doing a disservice to the businesses that you apparently want to support.

    Instead of listing fly-by-night bars and outdated businesses that closed and bemoaning fake parking crises, perhaps you should try your hand at looking at successful business in town?

    – A successful local business owner

39. 

    Paul Hrusovsky

     /  February 11, 2015

    This is a very interesting discussion.
    My friends and myself have been talking about the demise of Franklin St. Lately. We particularly complain about east Franklin because there are very few choices for adults and everything seems to be geared towards vsiting sports fans and students. Yes, I too remember all the cool places that used to be there and I would make an effort to support them. But first of all we are a small town without all the warehouse resources that Durham and Raleigh has. Secondly, young professionals, who work here, recently told me they don’t want to live here and party with drunk underage 19 year olds but prefer Durham where the medium age is 32. But I don’t think the town is closing down. I have a small shop in the courtyard off of Franklin St and live downtown. When I leave to go home on a Friday the town is bustling! There are long lines of people waiting to pay for parking, the restaurants are full and the streets often times packed with people. Yes, there are many empty retail spaces at 140 and soon we will have 14,000 sq. feet of more space at 123 Franklin St. I want downtown to succeed but often times feel there is no one in charge, from policing efforts to town management and development.

40. 

    Mark Marcoplos

     /  February 11, 2015

    Chapel Hill does not have a center, a commons where people can gather and events can happen. Peace and Justice Plaza is just a street corner and not big enough for a ping-pong tournament.

    Hillsborough has the Courthouse lawn. Carrboro has Weaver St. market and the farmer’s market area. Saxapahaw has the open hill and farmer’s market area. Durham has actual plazas and their farmer’s market.

41. 

    David

     /  February 11, 2015

    DOM,

    I suspect that if you were to set aside your preconceptions, you would discover that you, too, are a CHALT supporter. Go to chalt.org, read the platform, and then let me know which of the five planks you do not support. If we find that we agree on the overall goals, then we can have an interesting, and, hopefully, fact-based discussion about how to achieve them.

42. 

    Chris Jones

     /  February 11, 2015

    Mark is partially correct about Chapel Hill not having a town commons. What it has had (historically) has been underutilized:
    — Campus (duh), but they don’t like masses of people on the grass due to putting the trees’ health at risk
    — Rosemary St parking deck. Great open space on top, and the Downtown Partnership did a good job for several years of showing movies and bands there, but it has been underprogrammed for YEARS

    Today, 140 West has a common space designed for what Mark is seeking; unfortunately, there’s a steam-breathing giant cheese grater in the middle of it that mars the site and prohibits its utilization for any significant gathering. The University Square redevelopment, however, has a significant outdoor gathering space built into it, that (in theory) will have a natural flow to the 140 West space across Franklin.

    In both cases, it will be a question of programming to a certain degree. Both in the case of active event programming on the sites, but also in leasing space to tenants that create a hub of activity on those sites (it will, of course, also help if the residential components of these projects become occupied to a higher capacity with year-round residents)

43. 

    bonnie hauser

     /  February 11, 2015

    I though the common space was Maple View.

    Mr Blow – Parking is unpredictable downtown – especially at night. Beside the fees, most of the parking lots are reserved and last time I looked, town lots sat empty while people circled looking for parking. I’d love to know where you are parking – because if perception was better, more people might come downtown. There’s a lot of great restaurants and its nice to walk.

    I will admit that the free Carrboro parking deck has helped. It has good access to both downtowns.

44. 

    Joe

     /  February 11, 2015

    “Beside the fees, most of the parking lots are reserved and last time I looked, town lots sat empty while people circled looking for parking. I’d love to know where you are parking – because if perception was better, more people might come downtown. There’s a lot of great restaurants and its nice to walk.”

    Bonnie, I’m not sure where you’re getting your information. All of the town lots are free after 8:00 PM, (7:00 PM?). Before that, they’re only like a buck an hour, and there are tons of them. Again, I don’t live downtown, but I frequent downtown daily, and I’ve never had a parking problem, especially at night. I think it’s just a perception problem that people like Nancy are causing, quite honestly.

    http://www.townofchapelhill.org/town-hall/departments-services/police/parking/parking-in-downtown-chapel-hill/downtown-parking-map

    Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to get dinner on West Franklin St., then catch a show at DSI, and then grab after dinner drinks somewhere else on Franklin St. I’ll park at one of the *THIRTEEN* parking lots off of W. Franklin St.

45. 

    Bonnie

     /  February 12, 2015

    Joe- I’m going back a few months. The parking lots were full, meters are expensive, and there were a number of empty lots marked for town use. There are many good alternatives to downtown where parking is easier.

    I’ve spoken to several merchants who left downtown because of parking, and the ones that remain often raise parking as their number 1 issue. I’m glad to hear the Friends of Downtown are listening.

46. 

    many

     /  February 12, 2015

    I agree with Mark Marcoplos. A downtown “common” perhaps jointly managed by the university and the town would make a big difference in the social feel of the town center.

    I also agree with Paul Hrusovsky when he says he “……often times feel there is no one in charge”.

    Both of those observations go to the lack of that coordinated vision thing.

47. 

    Geoff Green

     /  February 12, 2015

    Some folks here seem to want downtown Chapel Hill to recover its “cool” character — whatever that means — and have a large quantity of convenient, free parking. Those goals are diametrically opposed. It is impossible from an economic and a design sense to have a walkable, transit-served, bike-friendly downtown with shops and services and have free, easy-to-access parking. It just simply doesn’t work. It also requires the town to sink taxpayer money into a project which increases traffic congestion, reduces land value, and doesn’t do anything to make it easier for people to “get around,” as the slogan says.

    My contention has been and continues to be that the problem with parking in Chapel Hill is not the quantity or the cost ($1 per hour is not a whole lot), it’s the discoverability. As Bonnie mentions, people do drive around looking for spaces in some of the centrally located small lots, particularly on West Franklin. But if you drive 500 feet further down the road, there are other small lots and odds are they are very much underutilized. Or there’s often parking on Rosemary.

    The Town’s big mistake with parking downtown was replacing the Lot 5 surface lot with underground spaces in the 140 West Franklin parking garage. Subterranean parking is by far the most expensive to build and maintain, and given the rate the Town is charging for parking, it’s hard to make the numbers work. Even charging a market rate wouldn’t work.

    As for the “empty lots marked for Town use,” I’m not sure which you’re referencing.

    By the way, had a lovely time last night in downtown Chapel Hill. We parked in the Graham Street parking lot which had lots of spaces at about 7 pm (didn’t even try any on Franklin Street), ate dinner at Kipos (about to celebrate its second anniversary) in the recently renovated and well-occupied Courtyard building, and took the not-very-long and pleasant walk to a grocery store which is walking distance from downtown Chapel Hill. Didn’t make it to West End Wine Bar this time, unfortunately.

    A couple of things we didn’t do that would have been fun was stop at the new Al’s Burger Shack, one of the great new establishments that have opened on Franklin Street in the last couple of years, or have a drink and throw some quarters into vintage arcade games at The Baxter “bar-cade,” another cool new destination downtown. I also need to make it to the Med Deli grocery one of these days, maybe when next we eat at Spicy Nine, a pretty good sushi place that opened up within the last year, or when we next visit long-time favorite Chapel Hill Comics.

48. 

    David Schwartz

     /  February 12, 2015

    Geoff,

    I’m curious to know whether you believe that increasing land value downtown is an end in and of itself, or a means to an end. If the latter, what is the end toward which increasing land value is a means? Can you envision a situation in which a municipality might find it desirable to keep land values low?

    Now that the town has learned the hard way—although it was common knowledge among transportation researchers, environmental psychologists and many others—that people don’t like to park in subterranean parking garages and, as you point out, that building them is economically unwise to boot, perhaps the Town should adopt a policy prohibiting them. If you write up the petition I’ll sign it.

49. 

    bonnie hauser

     /  February 12, 2015

    Most of the “discoverable” lots are reserved parking – so better signage to publc parking would help. One of reserved town lots were next to the lots behind Kipos. There were others.

    Today, Chapel Hill businesses rely on visitors. They come in cars. If its not convenient, they will go elsewhere. And our businesses will follow.

50. 

    Deborah Fulghieri

     /  February 12, 2015

    Maybe it’s from having lived up north and elsewhere, but parking has never been a problem for me. I don’t mind walking 100 yards.